A question related to Pentatonic Minor mode movement (theory wise)

[Yeong Juang]

HI,

I am hoping someone can help me with my Pentatonic Minor scale (mode) question.  This one bothered me for a long time since the year 2021.

Pentatonic Minor

E G A B D E (E minor – Pattern 5, position 1)

D F G A C D (D minor – Pattern 1, position 2)

C D# F G A# C (C minor – Pattern 2, position 3)

A C D E G A (A minor – Pattern 3, position 4)

G A# C D F G (G minor – Pattern 4, position 5)

Per Jonathan’s Pentatonic Fluency course, when we move from

pattern 5 to pattern 1, move 3 frets to the right (D to E is 2 frets, I thought it’s 2 frets)

pattern 1 to pattern 2, move 2 frets to the right

pattern 2 to pattern 3, move 2 frets to the right (A to C is 3 frets, I thought it’s 3 frets)

pattern 3 to pattern 4, move 3 frets to the right (G to A is 2 frets, I thought it’s 2 frets)

When I follow Johathan’s teaching and play.  It sounds right.  But theory wise I cannot comprehend.  The movement in red above is what I thought it should be.  Under the Major (not Pentatonic) Scale (mode), I can perfectly follow the movement of the 7 Major patterns.

E Major (pattern 1)

D Major (pattern 2)

C Major (pattern 3)

B Major (pattern 4)

A Major (pattern 5)

G Major (pattern 6)

F Major (pattern 7)

I can play E major pattern 1 and move to Pattern 2 to Pattern 7, by moving 2,2,1,2,2,2 frets.  Theory wise, this makes perfect sense.  For example, D Major is 2 frets from E Major; hence I move to the right 2 frets.

But for Pentatonic Minor, I thought Pattern 1 (D Minor) is only 2 frets from Pattern 5 (E Minor); hence we only need to move 2 frets to the right to play a different mode.  But in reality, we need to move 3 frets to the right.

Can someone help me out pointing where my understanding is off and how I can comprehend it correctly?  Thank you for someone’s help.

[Alan Desmond]

Someone said (picture paints a thousand words), I'll attach Am pentatonic patt'ns play across all patterns & Octaves to get the sound your seeking. So many great Am blues songs out there.  If you want to play Em just select an E root note & play same pattern & notes that fit your song. such as from d sting fret 2 or E note at A string fret 7 or from E at fret 12.

Other E start points like G string fret 9 will take you into warp zone, so adjust as. needed. Hope you find this helps.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Alan Desmond]

Just now, Alan Desmond said:

Someone said (picture paints a thousand words), I'll attach Am pentatonic patt'ns play across all patterns & Octaves to get the sound your seeking. So many great Am blues songs out there.  If you want to play Em just select an E root note & play same pattern & notes that fit your song. such as from d sting fret 2 or E note at A string fret 7 or from E at fret 12.

Other E start points like G string fret 9 will take you into warp zone, so adjust as. needed. Hope you find this helps.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

By the way if you want E major, just google that pattern & start from E root

[Yeong Juang]

Hi Alan,

Thank you so much for taking time to try to reply my q.  But sorry I could not follow your pictures.  Actually my main concentration is in Jonathan's "Pentatonic Fluency" course.  In his course, he simply said that you simply need to move to the right 3 frets to play the Pattern one (defined in his course) from patter 5 (defined in his course) to play different mode in his course (full mode movement summary is below).  My question is how to back this up in theory (a good explanation).  I understand the 7 major patterns movement perfectly in theory but just not the pentatonic.  Again thank you for anyone's inputs.

pattern 5 to pattern 1, move 3 frets to the right

pattern 1 to pattern 2, move 2 frets to the right

pattern 2 to pattern 3, move 2 frets to the right

pattern 3 to pattern 4, move 3 frets to the right

[Alan Desmond]

I've always had problems with that statement moving to the right 3 frets, seen many others raise same question. Guess what J mention is using different fingering (and why it get's confusing).

I tend to start with. My index finger, then play pentatonic pattern I sent. remember 2 frets away from nut & 3rd across is the next octave of key note. See the chart or alternatively you can play Dorien pat 2 or Aeolian6 fr major scales sht (both are  minor).

if you want to play something that's in major pentatonics scale print yourself the major pentatonic pattern from the web & start from the song or riff key note. That's what I do & start with index finger.

there's a lot in the modes unit too that may be helpful.  Alan

 

 

[Alan Desmond]

12 hours ago, Alan Desmond said:

I've always had problems with that statement moving to the right 3 frets, seen many others raise same question. Guess what J mention is using different fingering (and why it get's confusing).

I tend to start with. My index finger, then play pentatonic pattern I sent. remember 2 frets away from nut & 3rd across is the next octave of key note. See the chart or alternatively you can play Dorien pat 2 or Aeolian6 fr major scales sht (both are  minor).

if you want to play something that's in major pentatonics scale print yourself the major pentatonic pattern from the web & start from the song or riff key note. That's what I do & start with index finger.

there's a lot in the modes unit too that may be helpful.  Alan

 

My comment above about the move 3 frets quoted in the unit. After so long maybe over a year think I may just tumbled it. Realization on my part an Ah Ha moment. Refer to the pic of the Am pentatonic patterns that I've posted a few times. If you move 3 frets right from the first position. You could play notes of the scale that appear on that 3rd fret, that would be "in the key". But as the patterns are all connected, 1 big pattern & songs usually start from the key note. Probably best go to the Octave position & start there.

But it always remember try different things music no rules just guide lines.

 

[Geof Gibson]

Don't know if you got a good answer but I thought I'd give you the theory.

Start by looking at the notes in Am pent., A C D E and G.  So, starting on A, 3 frets up (right) and you get to C.  2 frets right to D.  2 more frets right to E and three more right to G.  That's how the 3 frets, 2, 2, 3 movement pattern gets you through all the positions.

Now, if you change to one of these positions, AND the key of your songs moves to the note on which you start, you are in a mode.  Looking at Am pent., move 3 frets from A to C AND play your song in the key of C, and you are in a mode.  C D E G A would be Ionian mode (sort of).  If you used all 7 notes of the full scale you would find that the notes correspond to C Ionian aka major scale and the same notes are A Aeolian aka natural minor.  All the same notes.  What matters is where you start or your tonal center.

Make sense?

[Fred Soukup]

@Geof GibsonThank you I was wondering about that myself.

[Geof Gibson]

Happy to help.  I usually don't go too much into detail about modes because it tends to confuse the less experienced students.  I like to get them really comfortable with pentatonic shapes around the neck and then tell them, hey, you're playing a mode.  That's all there is to it.