Sharp and Flat Keys

[Justin K]

Hello Fellow Breathrough Guitarists!

Need some help... I am pretty well new at guitar, but not entirely to music theory (on piano). I have completed Guitar Grid 101 and am about half way through Guitar Grid Mastery. I am probably just jumping the gun and my answer will come up in future lessons, but I CANNOT wait!

I understand the major scale and how to play minor scales by moving three frets higher than your root note. I just learned the pentatonic scale. My burning question is how do you use the system to play in sharp or flat keys (e.g. C# Major or A flat Minor)? Is it just a matter of moving to a different root position, or am I looking at a more complicated issue than I need to right now? I would love answers, though! Thanks BG Community!

Edited February 14 by Justin K
Made some typos!

[Geof Gibson]

Hi, thanks for asking and you bring up a good question.

I'll say, I think you are overthinking a little.  It is really as simple as doing exactly what you are doing now, but sliding up or down a fret.  IOW, if you are playing in A Major, root on the 5th fret and you want to play Bb, just slide up one fret and play the exact same shapes, but remember your root is now at the 6th fret on the E strings.  Depending on how you navigate the fretboard this might seem a little daunting.  That's why I tell people to focus on the root.  If you are confident where your roots notes are, everything else quickly falls into place.

[Alan Desmond]

12 hours ago, Justin K said:

Hello Fellow Breathrough Guitarists!

Need some help... I am pretty well new at guitar, but not entirely to music theory (on piano). I have completed Guitar Grid 101 and am about half way through Guitar Grid Mastery. I am probably just jumping the gun and my answer will come up in future lessons, but I CANNOT wait!

I understand the major scale and how to play minor scales by moving three frets higher than your root note. I just learned the pentatonic scale. My burning question is how do you use the system to play in sharp or flat keys (e.g. C# Major or A flat Minor)? Is it just a matter of moving to a different root position, or am I looking at a more complicated issue than I need to right now? I would love answers, though! Thanks BG Community!

I'm súre there are lots of people in the group who are clued up on theory and can give you a better answer than me. But you say you know your sharps & flats from piano. I would think it's the same. Just play from that flat or sharp key note.

Myself I got confused with shifting frets to play minor or starting with pinky. What I found from so many others is you can play from normal selected key note & flatten the 3rd for minor. If you take a look at Dorian 2 or Aeolian 6 you will see, from those which are both minor scales.

I attach a clip on intervals you may find helpful, the scales pic mentioned are show in the course units, but attached in mail responses to others.

[Justin K]

To Geof above,

Thank you for your answer; it totally made sense. I do overthink these things most of the time, much in part due to the fact that I cannot get over how just concentrating on the root note and following the patterns can achieve so much! Thank you for your time and efforts!

 

To Alan,

Thanks for responding to my post. It is like you said that the piano theory should mirror that of the guitar. Just like in piano... You move up or down by a half step and you find the flats and sharps; same on guitar I guess.

I do not yet understand what you were saying about scales and flattening a third, but I'm sure that is coming up in future lessons; I do not want to get too far ahead of myself. Thank you for including the interval chart. It made me think, are these intervals added to basic chords to come up with more advanced chords?

Thanks again, Alan! You were very helpful as I see you are pretty active in the community and are always sharing some good pearls of wisdom. I appreciate your time!

[Geof Gibson]

I can answer two things about intervals.  The intervals give you what Jonathan calls the Seven Feelings.  That is, the sound of each interval "says something."  The octave sounds very strong.  The perfect fifth sounds... well, perfect.

So, besides that, you are correct.  These intervals are added to basic triads to make more complex chords.  Take a major chord and add the flat 7th and you have the dominant 7th.  The tri-tone (sharp 4 interval) between the major 3rd and the flat 7th is the magic that makes dominant chords sound the way they do.  Add a 6th above the octave to that and you have a 13th.  And the sky's the limit from there.

[Alan Desmond]

12 hours ago, Justin K said:

To Geof above,

Thank you for your answer; it totally made sense. I do overthink these things most of the time, much in part due to the fact that I cannot get over how just concentrating on the root note and following the patterns can achieve so much! Thank you for your time and efforts!

 

To Alan,

Thanks for responding to my post. It is like you said that the piano theory should mirror that of the guitar. Just like in piano... You move up or down by a half step and you find the flats and sharps; same on guitar I guess.

I do not yet understand what you were saying about scales and flattening a third, but I'm sure that is coming up in future lessons; I do not want to get too far ahead of myself. Thank you for including the interval chart. It made me think, are these intervals added to basic chords to come up with more advanced chords?

Thanks again, Alan! You were very helpful as I see you are pretty active in the community and are always sharing some good pearls of wisdom. I appreciate your time!

Just for your info here's a couple of sheets I keep handy that may be useful. Gives you the note sequences for the regular major and minor keys. Suggest you hard copy like I've done. Check if they open ok if not I can email to you via Gmail.

 

Guitar Music Theory Notes (UPDATED to fix enharmonics, and some typos) (1).webp Guitar Music Theory Notes (UPDATED to fix enharmonics, and some typos).webp

[Alan Desmond]

Flattening the third It's just jargon sure you'll come across in time. Simply means if you see an E note and play an Eb it referred to as flattening.

If you take a look at the picture of 7 scales in the course material you will see the minor scales Dorian 2, Prygian 3 and Aeolian 6. The third note in the sequence are all moved to the left one fret compared to major scales.  Hence minor.

Much easier to remembér if looking at any other scales you may come across. 

Alan

[Alan Desmond]

18 hours ago, Justin K said:

To Geof above,

Thank you for your answer; it totally made sense. I do overthink these things most of the time, much in part due to the fact that I cannot get over how just concentrating on the root note and following the patterns can achieve so much! Thank you for your time and efforts!

 

To Alan,

Thanks for responding to my post. It is like you said that the piano theory should mirror that of the guitar. Just like in piano... You move up or down by a half step and you find the flats and sharps; same on guitar I guess.

I do not yet understand what you were saying about scales and flattening a third, but I'm sure that is coming up in future lessons; I do not want to get too far ahead of myself. Thank you for including the interval chart. It made me think, are these intervals added to basic chords to come up with more advanced chords?

Thanks again, Alan! You were very helpful as I see you are pretty active in the community and are always sharing some good pearls of wisdom. I appreciate your time!

I am old'y now retired so guitar learning & playing is the hobby that replaced work so i look through forum quite regularly & try to help others. Just seen you mention about. Adding to chords Geof as a professional is gonna be better placed, I see lots of lesson where players add pinky to create a different tone. i guess there's lots of other options but I try to keep it simple for me by playing chords I learnt (progressions I've learnt) then adding melody from scales. I also like to pick the notes from a chord as they suit a particular song I'm learning and use a full chord strum when I want to give it more body often at the end of a phrase.

as I say I'm just applying the learning.

alan

 

 

[Justin K]

On 2/13/2023 at 8:00 PM, Geof Gibson said:

Hi, thanks for asking and you bring up a good question.

I'll say, I think you are overthinking a little.  It is really as simple as doing exactly what you are doing now, but sliding up or down a fret.  IOW, if you are playing in A Major, root on the 5th fret and you want to play Bb, just slide up one fret and play the exact same shapes, but remember your root is now at the 6th fret on the E strings.  Depending on how you navigate the fretboard this might seem a little daunting.  That's why I tell people to focus on the root.  If you are confident where your roots notes are, everything else quickly falls into place.

Hi Geof!

I think I was a little unclear about part of the question I was asking. What you responded made total sense. Here's what my problem comes down to in understanding... (All of my examples use only scale pattern #1) If I am on fret 5 of the E string, I am in position to play an A Maj Scale. If I move down to fret 4 and start my scale there, then I'll be playing an Ab Major Scale. If I start on the fifth fret (A) and move up three frets to the eighth fret, then I am playing an A Minor scale pattern. My question is how do you combine the two methods of making a key flat and making it also minor (Ab Minor)? Where is the root? Do you start at A (fret 5), then move up three to fret 8 to make it a minor, and then do you move back down one fret (fret 7) to make it flat to end up with Ab Minor (that's my goal to figure out how to play sharp or flat major and minor scales)? Am I correct, or do I REALLY need your help; I think that I do! Thanks Geof for your efforts and all that you do for the community! Peace.

[Total Disorder]

On 2/18/2023 at 6:45 PM, Justin K said:

Hi Geof!

I think I was a little unclear about part of the question I was asking. What you responded made total sense. Here's what my problem comes down to in understanding... (All of my examples use only scale pattern #1) If I am on fret 5 of the E string, I am in position to play an A Maj Scale. If I move down to fret 4 and start my scale there, then I'll be playing an Ab Major Scale. If I start on the fifth fret (A) and move up three frets to the eighth fret, then I am playing an A Minor scale pattern. My question is how do you combine the two methods of making a key flat and making it also minor (Ab Minor)? Where is the root? Do you start at A (fret 5), then move up three to fret 8 to make it a minor, and then do you move back down one fret (fret 7) to make it flat to end up with Ab Minor (that's my goal to figure out how to play sharp or flat major and minor scales)? Am I correct, or do I REALLY need your help; I think that I do! Thanks Geof for your efforts and all that you do for the community! Peace.

Ok i'll try to help. So playing pattern #1 major scale ,starting on fret 5 .So this is the start of A major scale. 

The first note in the Scale ,that your starting with your pointer finger , change this finger to your pinky finger and change your pointer finger to start the minor pentatoinic 3 frets twords the nut of the guitar. 

This is always where the minor scale starts no matter what key your in .

[Geof Gibson]

You are on the right track.

Let's separate out two concepts.  First, the root.  I know you know this but I'll say it again, the root is your tonal center.  It is the note that defines all the rest of the scale and intervals.

So, when we're talking about "sliding frets," remember that we are selecting a root.  Now, if you slide your finger up from 5th fret E string A up to 8th fret E string C and play the same patter, BUT, keep the A note as your root, you are playing A minor, or A natural minor (or A Aeolian if you play all 7 notes and want to think of it as a mode of the major scale.)

To think of it reversed form the previous example, play your C major scale starting with C on the 8th fret... and then start with the A on the 5th fret, play all the SAME notes.  Now that's A minor, because you are making A the root.  Same notes, just different point of reference (root).